Select Board meetings have been hearing every week from citizens who are somewhere between concerned and outraged about the prospect of Hampton police operating in tandem with ICE agents to kidnap people around town.
There are also those speaking out in favor of ICE deployment in Hampton, those who assert Hampton is threatened by dangerous immigrants who will steal from Hampton homes and citizens, may rape, murder or (though it hasn't yet been mentioned--you know its coming) pose a lethal threat to Hampton's pet cats and dogs.
This happens during the "Public Comment" time which begins each Select Board meeting. Members of the public are allowed to comment, are cut off at 3 minutes and under no circumstances are they allowed to ask questions of the members of the Select Board or attempt to exchange in a "back and forth" with the Board members.
Through all this, the Select Board sits silently, like carvings on Mt. Rushmore, or gods on Mt. Olympus, listening but not interacting--beyond Mr. Rusty Bridle, who has interrupted speakers who look as if they will speak for more than the 3 minutes the Board allows for each individual to comment.
The Select Board is not alone in forbidding "back and forth" between citizens who have come to speak at meetings and members of the Board. The School Board does this. The School Board also cleaves to the 3 minute rule.
The reasons for limiting speakers to 3 minutes have been variously stated as, "Well, we could be there all night. We have to place some limits," to, "Well, we don't want one guy hogging the podium so nobody else gets a chance to voice an opinion."
But, of course, at the Deliberative Sessions which are held in February for discussion of proposed warrant articles, there is no time limit per speaker and there is a Moderator, who can intervene if someone gets off topic or obstreperous enough to derail civil discussion, but somehow that does not seem to work for either Board.
And, of course, you could solve the logistics problem by simply asking for a show of hands about who wants to speak that night, and if you've allowed 60 minutes for public discussion, and 12 people raise their hands, then everyone gets 5 minutes or if there are only 6 people, then each gets 10 minutes. There are simple solutions, if you really want to address the problem.
If you really wanted to allow people to express their opinions you could change the rules and put in safeguards, like a moderator. But more important even than hearing what citizens are thinking, we need a mechanism to hear what the elected representatives of Hampton citizens are thinking.
We elect candidate in every election from Select Board to the Presidency, without knowing much about them. The one way we get a real insight into who these people are, what they are thinking, is at press conferences, where they have to answer (or more often evade) questions. Nothing like that happens in this small town in New Hampshire. There are no press conferences for either the Select Board or the School Board. Of course, there really is no local press in the Seacoast worthy of the name "free press."
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State Rep Chris Muns |
Allowing citizens to question their government raises the prospect of anger. We've all seen raucous town meetings on TV where audiences shout down their representatives and shout at each other, so the strict limits on time and the wall between the speakers and those to whom they speak is said to be justified as a way to keep things under control.
But isn't there always the tension between free expression and order? We can have a very civil town and town government if we simply have no meetings at all, or meetings where only the Board members are present and they may or may not choose to speak about town issues. For that matter, if we had a king, things could be very civil. Supplicants before the king, kneel and beg for indulgence. Citizens of a Republic can demand a redress of grievances.
We have seen on TV those meetings of the Chinese and North Korean governments, where "representatives" of the people simply sit silently and applaud their leaders at the podium. There is no anger and no disorder and everything is very much in control.
Hampton is more like that than it is like any raucous town hall in Ohio.
There are instances of Hampton representatives speaking out publicly at the Select Board meetings--but these are not members of the Select Board. Three members of the state House of Representatives have spoken as citizens during the Public Comment session: Chris Muns, who asked the Select Board to vote a resolution of defiance against ICE cooperation; Erica DeVries who decried the violation of habeas corpus and the imposition of unfunded mandates to spend town taxpayer dollars on funding required for the protection of Hampton police should they join ICE; and Linda McGrath who Mad Dog found difficult to follow until she summarized by warning of impending invasion by tattooed gangs of illegal aliens from their home bases in Maine.
State Rep McGrath |
Here in Hampton, Mad Dog would like to see a meeting where a citizen stands up and addresses the Select Board Directly, beginning with the Chairman, Rusty Bridle:
"Mr. Bridle: Do you think immigrants are enough of a threat to Hampton to involve Hampton police in their arrests? What do you think of immigrants here in Hampton and beyond, Mr. Bridle? Do you think immigrants are a risk or a benefit to Hampton?"
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State Representative Erica Rachel DeVries |
And then, to Amy Hansen:
"Ms. Hansen: We have heard from folks who say the law is the law and the new state law says we here in Hampton have to pay for our police to cooperate with ICE. Do you believe it's as simple as 'The law is the law?' Are we bound to obey every law, even if we think its unconstitutional or immoral?"
And then, to Chuck Rage:
"Mr. Rage: Would you approve of Hampton police and ICE agents breaking down doors in Hampton? How about raids on work sites where landscapers, tree trimmers or construction workers are removed without arrest warrants?"
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Not A Representative Government |
And then, to Carleigh Beriont:
"Ms. Beriont: Do you believe Ms. McGrath, when she says there are row houses across the Piscataqua filled with murderous illegal immigrant gang members poised to invade the New Hampshire seacoast? Do you think this fear justifies masked ICE agents throwing human beings into unmarked vans at Hampton Beach and disappearing them?"
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Immigrant: Can I come in? Uncle Sam: I guess you can--there's no law to keep you out |
And, to Jeff Grip:
"Mr. Grip: Do you believe that Governor Ayotte and the state legislature can legally force Hampton to participate in extra judicial violation of habeas corpus and if you do not, would you be willing to have Hampton join a coalition of New Hampshire towns in resisting this law and fighting it in court and at the local town level?"
Now, if we had that sort of exchange, we may not change anything, but at least people watching on Channel 22 would have some idea of what their representatives are doing or not doing to represent them.
But until we can actually hear what our representatives think on this issue and related issues, we can do nothing to really affect the behavior of the board, or its composition.
Until then, they reside behind a veil of silence, imperious, silent, hearing prayers and admonitions but never deigning to reply.
Mad dog local officials that interfere or obstruct federal law enforcement are engaged in unlawful activity. Obstruction of Justice is a serious crime. I don’t know why you think that local officials can defy federal law. I thought you were a supporter of the union cause and not the confederacy in the civil war.
ReplyDeleteBot Anon:
ReplyDeleteOh, that old claptrap.
The way laws change is for people to oppose them, as the "redress of grievances" clause allows. When the War in Vietnam protesters violated local laws and federal laws, cries of "you have to obey the law!" arose from the Right.
Later, of course, it turned out there was another argument: The Vietnam war was itself illegal, never having been declared by Congress. So who, in the end were the real lawbreakers?
And when you have government organized kidnappings and denial of habeas corpus--who are the real lawbreakers?
Same for people who refused to obey Jim Crow laws which made it illegal for anyone but Whites to use "White Only" drinking fountains, bathrooms, swimming pools and drugstore counter soda fountains. If you refused to obey these laws, you were a "law breaker." Resistance, partly by refusal to obey unjust laws, ultimately resulted in changed laws, and the declaration that these laws were themselves unconstitutional, i.e. illegal.
There is a whole literature about the imperative to disobey immoral laws, or unjust laws, and laws which may be asserted as legal now, but are later found to be "illegal" by higher Courts.
Federal law made it illegal to criticize the federal government's draft for WWI, or to criticize the federal government's conduct of that war. In Schenck, Justice O.W. Holmes said that opposition to the war posed a "clear and present danger "to the nation and he said freedom of speech does not permit falsely crying "fire" in a crowded theater (as if decrying the draft was at all analogous) and he became a pariah and a joke to the extent he eventually did an about face, and wound up running away from all that.
That is one way laws get changed: by challenging them. At least that's the way it works in a democracy.
But you are absolutely correct: in North Korea individual citizens, local organizations are simply breaking the law and suffer the consequences when faced with immortal laws.
Personally, I prefer democracy. But that's just me. Can't speak for you.
Mad Dog
I think the confederacy made the same argument. I think Trump just won an election with a congressional mandate. Every local official who thwarts federal enforcement is a criminal. As you saw the deep state sandwich thrower is a disgrace and going to prison. Kennedy and Eisenhower used troops to ensure local officials did not obstruct federal law. Perhaps Trump will need to do the same. It sounds like you side with both the confederacy and southern segregationists in resisting federal law. Such posturing is not support for the democracy that elected Trump it is for neo fascist pro Hamas leftists who are trying to subvert our democracy.
ReplyDelete. Btw I see you avoiding any credit for aTrump ending Congo Rwanda war.
Oliver Wendell Holmes was an Ivy League elitist. Try Cicero "salus populi suprema lex esto”
ReplyDeleteBot Anon:
ReplyDeleteApparently, a "criminal" is anyone who disagrees with you.
News to me that Trump ended the Congo Rwanda war. Googling this, it is not clear that war in fact has ended or that Trump had any important effect.
Hard to disagree with Cicero--in fact, that's what I thought I was arguing for--putting the people first when there is argument about the law.
In fact, one can argue that enforcing the law was not what was going on with Ike's intervention in Little Rock with the National Guard: what was going on was putting the welfare of the people and putting justice ahead of distinctions of law.
Yes, of course, "states rights" in resisting what federal authorities insisted was the law formed the rationale for resistance. The bottom line is resistance in the service of wrong is something to subdue; resistance in the service of right is something to support.
In the case of those who resist government ordered kidnapping of innocents for the crime of looking brown are in the right. Whatever federal law or authority you cite for this despicable action is wrong, immoral and unconstitutional as long as habeas corpus is constitutional.
Anne Frank and her family may have been illegals, even "criminals" by your definition. Those who betrayed her and sent her off to death in a concentration camp were hideous, although acting lawfully, but wrong. Those who risked their lives violating the law to protect her were "criminals" by your lights, but to my mind they were heroes obeying a higher law.
--Mad Dog
Mad dog you have just showed how biased and illogical you are because Anne Frank committed no crime!, Every illegal alien committed at a minimum one crime and perhaps several felonies. It is disgraceful to invoke an innocent Jewish girl sent to the gas chamber with federal law enforcement against illegal aliens, it is a very perverse delusional comparison.
ReplyDeleteBOT ANON,
ReplyDeleteOh, but you miss the point: Anne Frank's family and the family who hid her DID commit the crime of being Jews and hiding Jews from the Nazis. The law said all Jews had to present themselves for deportation and hiding Jews from the Nazis was a violation of the law, making both the Jews and those who hid them criminals, sort of like your "illegal aliens" who have ALL committed a crime.
But, you are correct, to us, that was no crime, even though it violated local laws (laws enforced by the Gestapo.)
So this little analogy was put there to say that violating a law, if it is an immoral or unjust law (that Jews ought to be rounded up and sent to camps) is not wrong, even if it is illegal.
Similarly, ICE rounding up Brown people and calling them all "illegals" is wrong, even if it were legal, which it is not, or should not be.
I know, there's some abstract thought involved here.
And your AI is not real good at abstract thought.
Maybe you ought to just say that Trump is the best president ever, as anyone who is not a Jew hating, leftist, elitist would know, and that the war in Ukraine would never have happened if Trump had been President and how elitist Jew hating universities who love Palestinians ought to be shut down or converted to trade schools and the professors all sent off to be re-educated. And all like that. It's what you do best. But following an analogy, not so much.
Mad Dog
Mad dog objectively speaking being of a certain race or religion can never be morally considered a crime. I believe your leftist allies for a time decided that looting was not a crime so that is why goods at cvs are under lock and key. Every nation on earth deems illegal entry a crime. Don’t try to justify criminal activity and assail law enforcement against it by deeming it moral resistance, it is more akin to delusional thinking. To use resistance against genocide as an analogy as I said is perverse. These criminals are not being exterminated for gods sake they being imprisoned or deported. There is simply no sound logic in your position and if that is what the Ivy League taught you thank GOD for Trump reforming that rats nest of nihilism, anarchy and left wing revolutionary thought. It is that very thinking why Jews in America are endangered based upon the perverse logic that their rapists and nihilistic Hamas murders were conducting justified resistance. You and left wing friends have been brainwashed.
ReplyDeleteBot Anon:
ReplyDeleteSo, maybe if we take this really slowly:
1/ Anne Frank, a person who national/local law defined as being illegally present, undesirable, is like a woman from, say, El Salvador, who federal/local declares to be illegally present, undesirable.
2/ The Gestapo/local Dutch Nazis rounded up anyone who might be unwanted, considered undesirable by Nazis, e.g. Jews, and this is like ICE rounding up people who they want to deport because they do not like them and are trying to "cleanse" the country of them.
The differences may be there--Anne Frank was deported to death camps; others were deported to work camps, while Brown people in the US now are deported to El Salvador or Sudan where they may well die. We really don't know what happens to these ICE victims any more than the Dutch in Amsterdam knew what was happening to Anne Frank.
But the important point is both sets of people are being violently seized and sent off to uncertain, possibly lethal fates.
No analogy is ever perfect; there are always differences in details, but the overall point, the similarity, is what counts to elucidate the thinking: Rounding up people en masse and violently removing them without showing the individuals scooped up are guilty, individually of some crime is a bad thing to do, and likely unconstitutional. (Habeas corpus)
That's what the whole Lincoln story was about: Lincoln was intent on not treating people or making policy based on a class of person, rather than on individual behavior, guilt or innocence.
Clearly AI algorithms may have problems with abstract reasoning--much better at just repeating stock phrases and QAnon blather gathered from vast tracks of X and Storm Front.
Mad Dog
Mad dog listen to yourself brown people are being rounded up, really? I think illegal aliens are being rounded up. Don’t you realize brown people are also United States citizens. Are you so racist to think every brown person as you say is an illegal Allien. Don’t you realize the inherent racism in your thinking? Many Hispanic voted for and support trumps deportations because they are here legally they work hard legally they are entitled to the privileges of American citizenship. Want they don’t want is your patronizing really racist leftist use of them that diminishes their civil rights by lumping them in with illegal immigrants who steel their jobs use housing place burden on social services and raise their taxes. They understand real world realities and reject delusional leftist thinking that exploits them.
ReplyDeleteROBOT:
ReplyDeleteThe general principle is that arresting people because they are a member of a class is wrong.
Nothing you have provided suggests due process to identify individual guilty of individual lawlessness is in play with ICE agents throwing people into vans.
You have no way of knowing these illegals are being stopped because they have done anything wrong other than looking like they are not from here.
I have heard from family in LA that brown US citizens, nannies, no longer can go to parks with their white kids b/c too many of them have been arrested there for looking illegal.
That some brown people support these kidnappings does not mean brown people living in the ghettos welcome this tactic as an effective tool for bringing order to the chaos.
Anyone who watched "The Wire" knows this theater is viewed cynically by residents of high crime areas in the city.
The general principle is arresting people for being a member of a class, whether that is being Jewish or brown is wrong.
The idea that high crime areas victims welcome draconian police tactics needs documentation.
Mad Dog
Thank you Mad Dog for admitting your Ivy Leage leftist understanding of the real world is based upon watching HBO "The Wire." If anyone American citizen regardless of race is detained by ICE it is clearly an unlawful detention and not, in any way, authorized by the President. That is a fact. Your narrative is fiction based upon an HBO show it seems. You complained about the Maryland criminal illegal alien being sent to El Salvador his native country, and now is being held pending trial for crimes, including human trafficking. So let's not blur your position. You defend criminals, including Hama Supporters who lied on their Green Card or Visa applications, and do not support the sovereignty of the United States to defend our border and deport those who violated our laws or who are threats. Don't try to blur your position by falsely claiming you are defending what you, in racist fashion, call "brown people," who are legitimately in America or American citizens who are fully protected by the US constitution.
ReplyDelete"That's what the whole Lincoln story was about: Lincoln was intent on not treating people or making policy based on a class of person, rather than on individual behavior, guilt or innocence." - MAD DOG
ReplyDeleteAlso, your ivy league education apparently forget to enlighten you to the historical fact that Lincoln actually suspended Habeas Corpus. So another glaring area of historical ignorance now manifests. Mad Dog don't feel bad I watch the Pitt on HBO, and the difference between us is I don't pretend to lecture on emergency medicine, while you profess to know history and politics and law.
Robot:
ReplyDeleteYes, Lincoln did suspend Habeas under special circumstances--hardly news or any sort of gotcha--but the story about the Minnesota hangings remains--just another instance of your distracting from the actual principle enunciated with an irrelevant example of "what about."
What is happening (we can only infer) is brown folks arrested for driving while Brown, working while Brown, walking while Brown is still far closer to Anne Frank and her Gestapo captors than it is to your assertion that ICE is welcomed by brown ghetto folk who are just so pleased to be protected from ravenous brown illegals.
I know what I hear from family in LA.
And yes, "The Wire" is instructive, written as it was by David Simon who observed the Baltimore experience for years.
The fact is neither you nor I really know what ICE is up to.
We both depend on secondary sources.
The media is finding it difficult to get real information--well, except for FOXNEWS which just makes it up.
Mad Dog